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Old 11-13-2015, 09:39 PM   #1
JWSahara
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Default ISIS

What's it going to take? I mean how many have to die hearing the screaming allahu akbar? France's strict gun laws didn't help much tonight. Does anyone think these guys were liecensed or followed the ammunition restrictions? This is what it is... and sticking our heads in the sand like it will just go away isn't working. It is what it is.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: ISIS

I'm not sure what it is you're getting at. Are you saying if the French were packing that the terrorist attacks wouldn't have happened?
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: ISIS

I've already heard that argument surface, and it disgusts me.
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:56 AM   #4
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I'm not sure what it is you're getting at. Are you saying if the French were packing that the terrorist attacks wouldn't have happened?
No. I am not. Im only saying that the laws in place failed.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:02 AM   #5
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Default Re: ISIS

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I've already heard that argument surface, and it disgusts me.
What argument disgusts you?

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Old 11-16-2015, 07:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: ISIS

Specifically the one where "if French citizens were armed, this wouldn't have happened, therefore we should not have gun control in the US, lest this happen to us" .
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:23 AM   #7
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No. I am not. Im only saying that the laws in place failed.
In what way did they fail?

I'm just not seeing how tough gun laws and/or ammunition restrictions have anything to do with a terrorist war.

Are you such a good shot that if a suicide bomber walking down a busy sidewalk suddenly ripped open his coat (like in the movies), showed off his fancy explosive accessories (like in the movies), and then reached for the detonator (like in the movies) that you'd be able to whip out your gun and shoot him in the head, thus singlehandedly saving dozens (hundreds! thousands! millions!) of lives? Because that would be some serious Clint Eastwood shit, and I love Clint Eastwood.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: ISIS

Loki, I’m sorry that I disgusted you, but my original post was intended to be more about what is going on with ISIS or ISIL and that even in a Country such as France, with strict gun laws, they pulled off this massacre despite those laws and that it is foolish for us to think it will just stop. With that said, I am a gun owner and second amendment supporter. However, I was not going with the “lest this happen to us” argument… this time.

Oz, “In what way did they fail and how does it have anything to do with terrorist war?”…. I would question, what are the laws in place for and did they protect the people? If the terrorist can obtain these weapons illegally then a plain ol’ evil non war terrorist person can also. Leaving the only ones that can’t obtain the weapons and the ammunition are the law abiding folks. Maybe fail is not the right word, but I don’t know of another. Below is a link from today’s “The Irish Times” that goes into great depth of France’s gun control issues despite the laws.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...sues-1.2431076

Am I such a good shot? Well, I’m no Clint Eastwood… But I do practice. I also completely understand that a live shooter changes everything and it would be absolutely nothing like the movies. There are so many variables, that no one can say what they would do without knowing the situation. I personally would rather have a chance than be a sitting duck. Sometimes, such as in the Oregon Mall shooting, (see below) the one with a concealed carry permit realizes that they don’t have a clear/safe shot and they never pull the trigger. But if the bad guy was just emptying round after round, like what took place at the concert in Paris the other night, With the right shot it could be the difference in one, three or thirty or more lives.

“In Oregon two innocent human beings lost their lives, but perhaps the carnage would have been worse if not for Nick Meli, who has a concealed carry permit and was in the mall when the gunman opened fire. Meli pulled his weapon, but did not shoot the gunman because there were bystanders who could have been injured. The gunman saw Meli, an armed citizen, and rather than shoot more innocents he pointed his weapon at himself.”

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Old 11-16-2015, 11:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: ISIS

Here's what I think each and every time one of my friends uses the "if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns" argument.

Yes, you're right. That is the whole point.

If only outlaws, criminals, and bad guys in general have guns then when the good guys (cops and military) see you with a gun they know you're a bad guy and can feel ok with taking you out. Obviously that's a huge generalization, but you see what I'm getting at.

Imagine three hundred people in a theatre. Thirty of those law abiding citizens are carrying personal firearms. Ten bad guys walk in and start shooting. Ten good guys pull their weapons immediately and start firing back. After a few moments the other twenty good guys also pull their guns, only now instead of ten people shooting there are twenty. Which ones do you aim for?

Two cops walk in and see forty people shooting at each other. What now?
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: ISIS

It doesn't last that long. 40 people don't shoot at each other for very long. Cops will get there for the aftermath. Think what you want of me, but if shit goes down, you might be glad for folks like me... instead of waiting on the cops. How many died at the concert in France before police got there? (and I have many cop friends ..... no less than a dozen in my phone) So not dissing the cops. Did you read how the weapons are getting into France despite their laws.... the percentages... recipe for disaster...yes?

What was used in France was against the law. And your going to throw the"if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns" line out there. C'mon Oz....THAT is precisley what happened my friend. To the T.

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Old 11-16-2015, 11:48 PM   #11
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If only outlaws, criminals, and bad guys in general have guns then when the good guys (cops and military) see you with a gun they know you're a bad guy and can feel ok with taking you out.
As long as the good guys (cops and military) are the good guys... (enter history here) .... no thanks..... I'll keep my 2nd amendment right to protect myself and my family.

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Old 11-16-2015, 11:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: ISIS

It doesn't change what I think of you. I'm friends with lots of wacko pro-gun nutjobs. Living in the Texas of Canada it's pretty much unavoidable.

I did read the article and it does nothing to change my opinion on the matter.

And yes, I agree, that IS exactly what happened. Outlaws (terrorists) had illegal guns and killed a shitload of people. What I'm not understanding is how more lenient gun controls would have helped? Now please tell me how many people have been killed in mass shootings in America in the last year. I'm guessing at least as many as were killed in the Paris attacks. So... yay for no gun control?
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Old 11-17-2015, 12:16 AM   #13
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I did read the article and it does nothing to change my opinion on the matter.
was not trying to change your opinion.
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Old 11-17-2015, 12:25 AM   #14
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What I'm not understanding is how more lenient gun controls would have helped?
We don't know. We know the strict laws didn't prevent it.

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Old 11-17-2015, 10:04 AM   #15
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Default Re: ISIS

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We don't know. We know the strict laws didn't prevent it.
Ok, so then here's my next question. Do you really and truly believe that more lenient gun restrictions would have saved any of the three thousand people killed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: ISIS

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I personally would rather have a chance than be a sitting duck.
This is the part that kills me. You think a live shooter situation is like a video game, where the good guys all have green flags hovering over their head, or damage from friendly fire is a feature that can be turned off? No. In the chaos of multiple shooters, you'd just be another asshole with a gun in the eyes of the next asshole - er, "good guy" - with a gun.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:45 PM   #17
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We don't know. We know the strict laws didn't prevent it.
In any of the mass killings in the US in the last decade, how did more lenient gun laws prevent them? These arguments are totally irrelevant. Once something happens, it can't be undone. The greater access to guns in the US has only made it the leader in gun deaths. Places with more restricted access to guns find other ways to kill each other.

Instead of playing the "It is for protection and my safety" card, just say "I like guns - piss off", because anyone can see that having freer access to guns only exposes you to a greater likelihood of being shot by somebody.

Guns or not guns, man's inhumanity to man will continue as long as there are two people within visual range of each other.
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: ISIS

I should probably clarify about my "disgust" comment earlier. Whenever some violent act occurs, one of the first things that come up is the second amendment and how guns shouldn't be restricted, etc etc, as if this is the solution to everything. This is what disgusts me and drives me crazy. This is not a gun control issue at all.

Let's say you do restrict the guns.... obviously there's always a black market and a means for those who have the money. But if they couldn't get guns, don't you think the terrorists would have simply created more bombs with easy to acquire chemicals? They could have run around with a nail gun. Knives. Rocks.

Only because this is an issue I'm a little more familiar with, in Israel it's not uncommon to see people with guns. Most are military and police, but a good percentage of regular citizens carry licensed guns. They're required to apply, register, take weapons training etc. All very responsible and on the up and up. In general, they're a well armed/protected populace. You'd think that would be a deterrent against random terroristic acts. I'm sure it's foiled plenty of plots but it doesn't stop a determined group of people from randomly stabbing people on the streets with knives or shooting up people driving through. The only difference between what happens in Israel on a near constant basis and what happened in France is the level of vigilance of the authorities and the citizenry.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: ISIS

I have a concealed permit but i don't take my gun to the movies or a restaurant when I go out. Seems kind of pointless. The world is full of crazy people on both sides. They kill us, we kill them, world keeps turnin. Might as well eat my Porterhouse and hope for the best.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:19 AM   #20
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I have a concealed permit but i don't take my gun to the movies or a restaurant when I go out. Seems kind of pointless. The world is full of crazy people on both sides. They kill us, we kill them, world keeps turnin. Might as well eat my Porterhouse and hope for the best.
^^ This
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by CJSTora View Post
You think a live shooter situation is like a video game, where the good guys all have green flags hovering over their head, or damage from friendly fire is a feature that can be turned off? No. In the chaos of multiple shooters, you'd just be another asshole with a gun in the eyes of the next asshole - er, "good guy" - with a gun.
Wow... really? We have never met in person, yet you know so much about me. I mentioned that a live shooter changes everything. I gave an example where a CC person didn't fire for concern of people behind the the live shooter. Well....at least we are close enough friends that you refer to me as an "asshole 'good guy' with a gun". So I've got that going for me.

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Old 11-19-2015, 12:56 AM   #22
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The greater access to guns in the US has only made it the leader in gun deaths. Places with more restricted access to guns find other ways to kill each other.
Chicago - very strict gun laws = high gun crime rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion View Post
Instead of playing the "It is for protection and my safety" card, just say "I like guns - piss off", because anyone can see that having freer access to guns only exposes you to a greater likelihood of being shot by somebody.
But I don't "like" guns.

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Guns or not guns, man's inhumanity to man will continue as long as there are two people within visual range of each other.
ok... well that is as depressing as hearing the boo's (and allah akbar) in Turkey as they observed a moment of silence at the soccer game.

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Old 12-20-2015, 09:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: ISIS

We can't control a mass population armed with no training on how to handle an active shooter and/or terrorist attack. I would rather not have to worry about friendly fire ending my life.
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